Topic: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Hello! I'm Mikhail Kovalchuk.

On this page you can see small video:



http://youtube.com/watch?v=WyVFljTcC0g



of  new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# and la#. Posibility of play Fa #, Sol#, La# like Fa, Sol, La + a universal kay (Fa #, Sol#, La#)

Please write me your opinion. E-mail    komist2@mail.ru

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Hello! I‘m a ex-bassoonist, now I repair musical instruments.
I have invented and I have made this new system. In figure you can see three kays for the big finger right hand ( MI, additional RE, and universal kay Fa#, Sol#, La#.
To play the note Fa#, you should press keys for Fa + universal kay Fa#, Sol#, La#.
Too most - for the note Sol#. You press keys for Sol + a universal kay Fa#, Sol#, La#.
Also for the note a La#. You press keys for the note La + a universal kay Fa#, Sol#, La#.
Additional kay Re allows to play trills and a tremolo which cannot be played on old system. Please write your opinions.
Here you can see the figure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KC0x0SRw2c
Thanks.

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

I've seen this done before.  You deserve great credit for accomplishing it.  The Bb isn't so hard to do, but the F# gets more difficult and the G# is quite a trick.  Congratulations for doing it successfully. 
Chip Owen

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

When this clip first appeared on YouTube, one viewer commented that "it was a fake" mainly because the audio was not synced with the video. I didn't believe it either, but if Chip says he's seen it before, then I'm more than interested in how it's done. (That comment has since been removed.)

I'd like to see a better description, either as text or key diagrams showing what's actually happening to allow for such ease of playing F#, G#, A# as if they were F, G and A.

Consider that it might make a good Ab to Bb trill not only technically more simple, but also acoustically practical, and that alone should get the system the serious consideration it deserves!

Let's hear or see more, Mikhail!

Harry Searing
Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Heckelphone
Faculty: Manhattan School of Music Precollege Division (NY), Montclair State University (NJ) &  CUNY (NY)
President, LRQ Publishing - featuring the bassoon music of Francisco Mignone

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Thanks and in for yours comentarys to Mr. Christopher Brodersen , Chip Owen  and DaHah. 
I have a question to Chip Owen. What did you have in view of when have written, what you saw it earlier? Please, write more in detail.

I understand, that all new causes mistrust and fear in people. I can on 100 % confirm, that my system not a deceit and not focus. On video you see real record of the first test triple systems. Video is made by not professional foto-camera and consequently video and a sound do not coincide.

To make this triple automatic system, I have spent many time and work. All was not simple for making it very much. But it already all behind. Now the triple system exists and works. It is a reality. On a bassoon with this system you can play easily earlier difficult transitions.

This system gives many additional opportunities for the musician. Please, write your opinions on a forum. Business offers write to me on my email komist2@mail.ru.

Excuseme for my bad English.

Thanks.

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

I just ran across this link. It looks like pictures of Mikhail's new system. Interesting!!

http://fotos.hispavista.com/fagot

The low E key looks a bit small, but the mystery is starting to unravel. I'd like to see what's happening on the bottom of the butt joint to get those three notes (F#/G#/A#) to be played like F/G/A.

Last edited by DaHah (2007-03-07 23:14:12)

Harry Searing
Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Heckelphone
Faculty: Manhattan School of Music Precollege Division (NY), Montclair State University (NJ) &  CUNY (NY)
President, LRQ Publishing - featuring the bassoon music of Francisco Mignone

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

So would I Harry

Ian

Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Probably participants of a forum have not absolutely understood a discussed theme . I do not suggest to discuss a detail of a design of triple automatic system. I suggest to express your opinion on advantage of this system.

For example, to you offer two bassoons, one with traditional mechanics and other bassoon with the modified mechanics ( with triple automatic system + additional kay RE ).

a question, what bassoon you will choose? Provided that mechanisms work well and a sound of two bassoons identical. Write, please, your opinions. Thanks. Mikhail.

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

To me it is very surprising, that bassoonists have no opinion on triple system. I suggest to express opinion on a bassoon, instead of on the sewing machine. On it video it is possible to see an opportunity of use of one key instead of three.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ16WDSJiks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyVFljTcC0g

http://fotos.hispavista.com/fagot

In these photos it is possible to see modified saxophon. I have made it for the saxophonist who has lost fingers on the left hand. Keys for a little finger of the left hand are located below for the big finger of the right hand.

Also I modified the key on basset of BUFFET.  It is possible that it will be interesting to musicians.

http://fotos.hispavista.com/komistsax

Thanks. Mikhail

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Well, of course if it makes playing those tricky notes easier I think the general opinion of most players is that we would choose this option, given enough time to get used to it.

Personally I think you should move all the keys up, so that the thumb is in a more neutral position all the time.  This is taken from the concept of Hank Skolnick's bassoon, where he as moved the touch for the low E key to where the Bb key is on a normal bassoon and every subsequent key is also moved up.  Since we don't have to cover any holes with our finger, we can put the touch wherever we want.  Ultimately I would think that the ideal place for this key is in the current position of the E key, or in the current position of the Bb key.

Think on those ideas and let us know what you think.  I'm just concerned with the ergonomics of what would be the most used key on the bassoon in such an uncomfortable position (I know we don't think of it being uncomfortable, but think about how truly out of natural resting position your thumb is when playing F#)!

When you throw out such a dramatically difficult and complex system like this of course you will have people (on this forum) asking "How does it work?".  I wonder how it works too, but I understand you want to maintain your proprietary information.

Hopefully you are able to understand what I'm saying, I know English is not your native language.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon Specialist at Midwest Musical Imports

Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Let me begin by stating my awe in the mechanical feat you apear to have acomplished.  However, while playing high B or C, would this single key open the Bb tone hole?  Also, is the upper octave back/slur G# possible with this key?

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Thanks Mr. the Trend for your comment.
I with you agree, that keys need to be established above.
It will be more convenient for bassoonists. I think, that if the factory will make a bassoon with my triple system they will consider it.

Mr. Benbassoon can look video where it is visible, that for notes B and C  I use the universal key FA# SOL# LA#

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMM5AJuN58U

Unfortunately have not understood the second question.

Thanks
Mikhail

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

By "back G#," I was reffering to an alternate G# fingering that can be used in slurrs with little risk of cracking.  It is identical to the normal G# except that instead of the ring G-key being closed by the right hand ring finger, the right thumb F# key (which you have replaced with a universal right thumb key) is depressed.  My question is: would this alternate fingering still be possible with your system?

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

benbassoon wrote:

By "back G#," I was reffering to an alternate G# fingering that can be used in slurrs with little risk of cracking.  It is identical to the normal G# except that instead of the ring G-key being closed by the right hand ring finger, the right thumb F# key (which you have replaced with a universal right thumb key) is depressed.  My question is: would this alternate fingering still be possible with your system?

It wouldn't matter if you only have one G# tone hole!  My bassoon only has one, the back G# key opens the same hole as the front key.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon Specialist at Midwest Musical Imports

Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Being completely fascinated with bassoon keywork and ways to make technique simpler, I think that I completely understand this system.  When only the second finger of the right hand is depressed with the universal key you get B-flat, depress the 3rd finger and the B-flat tone hole closes and the A-flat tone hole opens, and depress the F key and the F sharp tone hole opens.  If this is correct then many notes in the high register will simply not work.  Take either of the slur fingerings for high A-flat 23 and B-flat or 4 and B-flat.  With 23 and B-flat with this universal key the B-flat tone hole won't open but rather the A-flat tone hole likewise with 4 and B-flat the F-sharp tone hole will be open.  While simple 3rd finger for this note is in most cases usable, other notes like high C and high B which need the B-flat tone hole open and have the 4th finger depressed will have not the B-flat tone hole open but rather the F-sharp tone hole.  So for me, unless this system is far more complex than I gather, I would rather stick with the standard system.
Bret Newton

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Bret's statement is what I was getting at in my earlier post.  If the system is indeed a triple reverse sprung device (the same method by which the low Eb/Cb trill device works), then the alternate fingering for high G# I was referring to would open the Bb tone hole instead of the F# hole.

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

On it video sounds the chromatic scale executed on a bassoon with my system. The system is established on the old bassoon which is not having keys; RE and MI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gOG6iPFvu8

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Mikhail wrote:

Probably participants of a forum have not absolutely understood a discussed theme . I do not suggest to discuss a detail of a design of triple automatic system. I suggest to express your opinion on advantage of this system.

For example, to you offer two bassoons, one with traditional mechanics and other bassoon with the modified mechanics ( with triple automatic system + additional kay RE ).

a question, what bassoon you will choose? Provided that mechanisms work well and a sound of two bassoons identical. Write, please, your opinions. Thanks. Mikhail.

So this is my reply. I think the concept of a single key to articulate FA# (F# or Gb) SOL# (G# or Ab) and LA# (A# or Bb) has many advantages, particularly below F4 (the F above open F). However, I can think of some issues with higher notes. For instance, what if you have a high note fingering in which you want to depress the LA# (Bb key) and the SOL# (Ab key)? My understanding of this system is that this will not be possible.

More esoteric fingerings may not be possible such as certain multiphonics.

So Mikhail's system appears to work well for 95% of the the bassoon repertoire, but will present new problems for the remaining (and rarer) repertoire.

Terry Ewell
Professor Bassoon, Towson University
Former President, IDRS
Former Principal Bassoon Hong Kong Philharmonic, Wheeling Symphony

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Passes time and opinions vary. That yesterday seemed not possible, today becomes a reality. More one year ago Mr. Terry B. Ewell  has expressed the opinion on my system in three words "Where  is the key Bb?".

Now Mr. Terry B. Ewell  has estimated my system on 95%.Thanks. Probably, that there will pass still time and this opinion also will change.

Information on notes La#, Sol# which are mentioned by Mr.Terry B. Ewell:

In the book"Das Fagott II" Authors Werner Seltmann, Günter Angerböfer  there is a table "Standard Fingerings and Alternative Fingerings". For note LA# there there are 13 variants of fingerings, but not in one of these variants there isn't the key Bb.
For  the note SOL#  are specified 10 variants, but not in one there is no key Ab.

Mikhail

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Mikhail,

I don't recall ever replying to you prior to my February 2007 message on this list. Was this prior message by e-mail? Could you give me a copy of it? If you could tell me the month I sent it in I could find it, since I save my messages for up to 2 years.

With regards to the simultaneous use of keys please examine the fingerings contained in the Bassoon Family Fingering Companion. I haven't fully searched the database, but here are four web pages with fingerings employing the Ab and Bb keys simultaneously:

http://idrs.colorado.edu/bsnfing/note/heckgx5.htm

http://www.idrs.org/Pub/BsnMulti/BB1_B1MU.html

http://idrs.colorado.edu/bsnfing/micr/7tonemic.htm

http://idrs.colorado.edu/bsnfing/micr/m4ap4.htm

I suspect that there are many other instances as well.

Please understand I am not criticizing the innovation. It really might be a marvelous solution to the many problems we face as bassoonists. I am, however, pointing out that there are situations in which this new key  will limit fingering choices, choices a performer may want to make.

Terry Ewell
Professor Bassoon, Towson University
Former President, IDRS
Former Principal Bassoon Hong Kong Philharmonic, Wheeling Symphony

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

I too wonder if the "improved" mechanism takes into account the slight pitch variation between low and mid F#, if one simpy "octaves" either fingering. The subtle intonation problem is currently dealt with by two distinctly different keys (and therefore fingerings). i.e low F3 uses Rh Thumb key and the octave (half-holed note) uses Rh 4th finger key (the extension of F key)

Similarly although the G# /Ab fingering alternatives for Rh thumb and Rh 4th finger operate the same key by use of a push-rod, this mechanism allows "user selective" fingering sequences. Perhaps this alternate fingering option is no longer necessary with the "new" mechainsm.

The questions regarding the effect on other fingerings which include any of the modified existing keywork are very important and more critical to the potential succes of this mechanism than the actual improvment itself.

What s needed is a playing test which checks out every chromatic "normal" fingering and all alternative, trill, multiphonic etc fingerings, over the full range, including slurring octaves and any other intervals, as well as the full impact on intonation of every note on the instrument.

Regards Neville

Last edited by NevilleForsythe (2009-12-10 12:44:50)

Neville Forsythe
Christchurch New Zealand
Bassoonist / Teacher / Conductor

Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

My system has the history about two years. I sent much the information by e-mail. From many received answers including from Mr.Terry B. Ewell . Answers were different. The majority spoke, that it is very interesting.
Now I have an experimental variant of a bassoon with my system.
I am respectful to any opinions and I perceive positively.
Very important remarks would be stated by Mr.Terry B. Ewell , and also other participants of a forum. I have made the analysis of all remarks stated by participants of a forum. After some updating my system I have enough bases to assume, that on a bassoon with my system it is possible to use any existing combinations the fingerings , and also new the fingerings .
Thanks all participants of a forum.
Mikhail.
Excuse for my bad English .

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Terry Ewell wrote:
Please understand I am not criticizing the innovation. It really might be a marvelous solution to the many problems we face as bassoonists. I am, however, pointing out that there are situations in which this new key  will limit fingering choices, choices a performer may want to make.

I modernized my system. Now it is possible to use key ?b as on a traditional bassoon.

Also it is possible to establish the universal key/F#,G#,A#/ below key F#.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_c6W6hWmx1c 

http://fotos.hispavista.com/fagot

Mikhail

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Re: new triple automatic system for the keys fa# , sol# , la#.

Here it is possible to see application of the universal key/F#,G#,A#/key/.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CqhaoupFTaM

here you can see the partiture/FOTO 5/:

http://fotos.hispavista.com/fagot

Mikhail.

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