(EDITOR'S NOTE: This interview was first done for Hans Kreul's publication Oboe und Fagott. It is reprinted here with Mr. Kreul's permission.)

Nora Post: From the questions I'm going to be asking you today, you may discern a bit of my playing the devil's advocate. This is quite intentional, I'm going to be skeptical about a brand new competition, and you may find yourself in the position of convincing me - as I think you ultimately will have to convince the oboe world of the quality and aims of this enormous project. But before we get to the tough questions, I've got one other question, which is: why you? Why Bert Lucarelli, of all people, to s tart this competition?

Bert Lucarelli: I've always thought that if the oboe is really going to be accepted as a solo instrument, it has to do all the things the other solo instruments do - such as competitions - to help create an aura of interest and excitement. Of course, I've always thought a competition for solo oboe playing would be helpful to the concept of solo oboe playing. Another important reason this is so crucial today is that we have so many wonderful oboe players - so many young players who are coming up, especially - and there just aren't enough opportunities for them as orchestral players. It seems to me that they will have to become self-generated in their careers; one of the ways they can do this is to build an audience for themselves. They have to learn how to do this the same way a politician finds his constituents, or that any soloist develops his fans. As oboe players, we haven't entered into this arena yet, and I think that we need to - the way violinists and pianists have.

NP: Let me ask you a few questions about solo playing. Some people would argue that virtually no one can actually make a living as a solo oboist, and that many ultimately will be in an orchestra - whether they want to or not - and that there is, consequently, a problem in the whole concept of a solo competition. How would you respond to that?

BL: Well, I don't think the problem is that people don't want to be in the orchestra - I think the problem is that there aren't enough orchestras for the number of terrific players we have. You know this better than I do, since you see these people all the time.

NP: Yes, but they would have an even tougher time making a living as solo players. It would be easier to get into the middle-of-the-road orchestra than to build a successful career as a solo oboist.

BL: I would debate that. When a grade B or grade C orchestra announces an opening for second oboe, they get something like two hundred and fifty applicants. Out of that two hundred and fifty, so many of them are terrifically qualified for the job. The pool of players keeps multiplying, and I see so many players who aren't really doing anything. Well, instead of not doing something, why not enter a few competitions, why not create opportunities for yourself?

NP: That was really my next question. What do you see as the economic and career possibilities for someone interested in solo oboe work?

BL: Players who would like to go the solo route very often ask how I did it myself. Yet, I don't think you can ever tell someone how to do something that's new and innovative because, in the end, there isn't a formula. This is especially true for oboe players, because there is not even a recent tradition of solo playing. Yet travel has made all of this so much more possible today. I think if Goossens were just starting out today, he would have a wonderful international career, and would be traveling all over the world playing. He has the personality for it. And that's really the key, isn't it? It's who and what you are as a person that will make it happen or not - and it's also an enormous amount of luck. Accidents. I've had a wonderful life in the profession, but I've been very lucky.

NP: Let's move on to the competition for a moment; I meant to ask you about the age limits for the competition.

BL: At the moment, the age limit is eighteen to thirty. I judged one competition where there was no age limit at all, and it was wonderful. It seems to me that one of the big complaints about competitions - and about music today - is that we seem to have so many people who are entering the field who are technically terrific, but don't have very much to say, yet. Well, if that's the case, aren't competitions with age limits encouraging that? Having "something to say," it seems to me, has to do with maturity. Young players have practiced so much, they have so much technical expertise, but they haven't, in fact, spent time outside the studios doing all the things that make you a deeper, richer human being. So, maybe it might be possible someday to open the competition up to any age.

I've judged a lot of competitions, and one of the nicest ones is the Canadian Music Competition. It showed me the positive side of competitions. We all know what the negative aspects of competitions are, what they breed. But I was so impressed by the sense of camaraderie in the Canadian competition. It wasn't competitive in a negative sense - there wasn't any backstabbing - and the players were cheering each other on. Players were very supportive of each other, everyone tried to play their best, letting the prize go whichever way it went. If you can walk away saying you've done your best, then you've really won. Whether it was the best in someone else's judgment is of almost no consequence. In the end, competition winners aren't necessarily the ones who have the successful careers, anyway. You know, who wins a competition is almost arbitrary, though most people don't realize it. It depends on how the judges feel that day and, in our case, a silly thing like what kind of a reed you had that day! There are so many subtle variables.

NP: Did you find that the older players in the competition without an age limit were actually more artistically mature?

BL: Yes. They were generally more interesting to listen to. Of course, part of a competition is the idea of launching a solo career. Doing this at a late age, though, seems to add problems to a situation which is already difficult. But I think mature players, for example, could still move into a successful solo career if they really want that. The dynamics of building a career are so complex that I wouldn't rule anyone or anything out. I think if more competitions had no age limit, it could have a profound effect on the whole profession.

NP: Yes. But back to a few nuts and bolts questions: could you tell me about the prizes that go to the competition winner?

BL: There's a financial award of $1500 for the first prize winner, plus a New York recital debut. There is also a monetary prize for the second and third prize. In addition, each of the finalists will be given an oboe, which I think is an extraordinary gesture on the part of the oboe makers.

NP: In terms of support from the oboe community, what kind of support do you want and need, and how important is this to the success of the venture?

BL: We need support in terms of energy from the community! Obviously, if we're going to continue, we're going to need financial support. Much of our support has been by volunteer workers, and I hope that will continue in the future. I think oboe players can encourage the competition themselves either by entering it, or by encouraging their students to enter it. We had close to one hundred entries last year. Though most of the applicants were American, I certainly hope that we will have many more non-Americans in the future. Of course, this gets into the fascinating area of international oboe styles. This competition has to transcend that. It's interesting for oboe players to talk about different styles but, ultimately, the only important thing is if you do something musically. That's the only important thing to an audience, that's for sure.

NP: Yes, let's talk about this for a moment. American oboists have often felt that European competitions discriminate - however subtly or blatantly - against Americans. I recall the story of a friend who was cut after the first round of Geneva, being told by Pierlot that her sound was "not expressive." That was it, goodbye, she was out. How will you be sure your judges don't discriminate against European sounds, since this is certainly one of the areas of controversy in the oboe world?

BL: Right. I want to mention that the first prize winner of our competition was told at the Prague Competition that the reason he couldn't win the first prize was because he played American style. To me, this says that the Prague Competition is not an international competition. I don't see how you can call yourself an international competition, and then make judgments based on national preferences. We will have a truly international panel of judges, to make sure that we have representatives from a variety of schools of playing. It's also very important to have judges who are not oboe players. People who aren't oboe players can hear differences in schools, but they don't really identify it the way we do. I think it's important that a singer, for instance, makes a judgment based very much on general musical appreciation of what's happening, the way a normal sophisticated audience would. It's also been my experience, judging both national and international competitions, that judges are more objective than we suspect. They try very hard to keep a lot of clarity in their minds. I recently judged an oboe competition in Montreal and, as you know, that's generally French School. I made it a point to put my cars in a certain place, to try to understand the vocabulary. I think understanding different styles of oboe playing is like understanding different languages or foods.

NP: Yes, but that's not always an easy thing to do.

BL: I know it's not easy. But I think that if you are a judge, you must feel a sense of responsibility not to be biased. It's very moving, in fact, to see someone walk into a room who has devoted his whole life to playing in a particular style, and then to leave that behind him and go into purely musical judgments. It's a wonderful experience to see that. People do it, and they do it with great dignity. I hope all our judges will approach our competition with that attitude. There are players, of course, who can't do this.

NP: Right. I remember a story about a Holliger concert in New York. A very distinguished American oboe player was talking to a colleague after the concert. The colleague commented that it was a wonderful concert if you just ignored the sound. The famous player responded that you cannot ignore the sound, that if the sound isn't there, nothing is there. It seems to me that this person wouldn't make a good judge for you.

BL: Now you're touching on one of the secret reasons why I wanted to hold this competition!

NP: Does this mean that the next interview will be called "The Secret Desires of Bert Lucarelli"?

BL: Of course. I think I can take that distinguished player, talk to him, and have him come in with a different attitude. If he could open his mind, his ears, and his heart, he might learn something for himself as well. I think that's exciting. I love creating situations where everyone wins, and I think there's every chance that the judges may come away from this competition having learned something as well. There is an international language of music, and if you allow yourself not to be defensive about your particular way of playing - or where you were accidentally born - then you can just sit down and enjoy it. I think a lot of people are critical of Holliger because they are subconsciously jealous. That's a real tragedy, because jealousy is a terrible, terrible waste of time. It has nothing to do with Holliger or anybody else - it means you don't like where you are.

NP: Moving back to judges for just one more moment, I'd like to ask one more question. If you could have anyone in the world judge this competition - if everyone were miraculously available and able to do it - who are some of the people you would choose?

BL: The first two people that come to mind are Elizabeth Schwartzkopf and Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau. It's interesting that I go to singers. I think perhaps that because we don't have a "grand" tradition of solo oboe playing, if we are to copy anyone, singers are certainly the ones to emulate. After all, any instrument is no more than an extension of the human voice. There's nothing more glorious than la bella voce.

NP: Do you have any plans to commission new works for the competition in much the same way that the Paris Conservatoire has - since the dawn of history, it seems - commissioned new pieces each year?

BL: At the moment, the competition is so young that we haven't been able to do this. But I do have two ideas. Of course I would like the obvious idea of having new pieces commissioned and played. But wouldn't it be interesting - and fun - to find the Paris Conservatoire piece for each year of our competition... only a hundred years ago?

NP: But a lot of those pieces are such dribble!

BL: Yes, of course they are, but isn't that what someone is probably going to say a hundred years from now about anything we commission today? Besides, one of the reasons I like the idea of going back to a piece from 1888 and having everyone learn it and play it is that it gives us a thread with the past, and helps to create a tradition. I think the thing that is missing in terms of the concept of the oboe as a solo instrument is just that sense of tradition. The repertoire is there, but we need to excite audiences. There are some marvelous pieces that no one is hearing; that's another reason the concept of solo oboe playing is so important. One of the tragedies of the profession is that we're taught in music schools that only a small amount of the oboe's repertoire is valid. Mozart, Schumann and a couple of others are ok, but everything else is, as you say, dribble. This is just not true. Of course, there are a lot of oboe works which are basically divertissement pieces. But is there anything wrong with that? Why does everything have to be a traumatic soul-wrenching experience? You wouldn't go to a dinner party and eat just steak. A real concert has an appetizer, a pasta dish, a main dish, a salad, and a dessert. It has all kinds of things. Maybe the role of the oboe player is to be the dessert. We don't have a Mahler concerto. The Kalliwoda Concerto has never been played in New York, yet Kalliwoda was programed on the very first concert the New York Philharmonic ever played. Now he's out of fashion, but it's a terrific piece. There's a lot of repertoire out there, and what we need are oboe players who become advocates of our tradition and repertoire. I generally have a pretty positive outlook on life, and I think part of that has to do with the repertoire that I play. My grandmother used to say you become what you eat - well, you also become what you play! If I play Vivaldi concertos and other cheerful pieces, that becomes my nature. It would be inconsistent to be a depressed, brooding person, and then go out and play all these happy pieces! I think many orchestral players are a bit serious because they spend so much of their time surrounded by very serious music. There's nothing wrong with this, of course - it's just the way it is.

NP: Let me ask you a negative question about competitions. A famous violinist once gave me some free advice. He said that competitions weren't worth entering, and that the best thing to do is to let them invite you for everything you do in your career. I must say, this worked out extremely well for me, and I'm wondering what you might say to the talented young soloist who says thank-you-but-no-thank-you?

BL: Well, I understand the violinist's comment. But, as I said earlier, I think everyone has their own way. I also think it's a question of expectations, of what you expect to get out of a competition - or anything else in life. We enter relationships, for example, with all kinds of subjective expectations, which have absolutely nothing to do with who the other person is. I think many people also enter competitions with unrealistic expectations. They feel that they must win and that if they do win, they will suddenly have a great career. I believe that competitions are such a "roll of the dice." But if you go into a competition saying that you're going to learn a certain number of pieces, you're going to have a good time playing them for people, and you're going to play better than you ever have, then great. You've shifted to personal expectations that are positive - what you get out of it for yourself and your playing, rather than just your career considerations. Life is not a horserace!

NP: Then why would you need a competition at all?

BL: It's an opportunity for people to play, and it's a special opportunity to be heard and to get some feedback from some very respected men and women in our field of music. If you're serious about what you're doing, that should be enough.

NP: I just have a few more questions for you. First, in what directions would you like to see this competition head in future years?

BL: I would love the prize money to be $3,000 instead of $1,500. 1 would love the prize to have an internationally issued debut record plus management. But being a soloist means that an individual must have the savvy to build a career, to take advantage of the opportunities that arise on their own. All of us have opportunities, so it's a question of putting that whole dynamic together. We're planning the competition for every two years. If we could give someone two years of concerts, traveling, and recordings, well, what a great send-off for a career! Many positive sparks can come from this kind of event.

I think the oboe is a beautiful instrument. And I think audiences love the instrument. So many people I talk to tell me the oboe is their favorite instrument. Then why isn't it being used more as a solo instrument? I think the time is now for it. I'd like to see forty oboe players with forty different styles touring the world as soloists.

NP: Of course, during the 18th century, there were great oboe soloists touring Europe - people like Bessozzi, Fischer and SanMartini. They all wrote their own pieces, and winds had considerably more prestige than strings at the time. But we lost all this during the 19th century.

BL: Well, it's time to find it again! Twelve concertos by Fischer. And who has ever heard them? Why can't we hear them? What's more colorful than a man who died during a concert while he was playing for the Queen of England? I can just see this man writing a lick for himself that was so difficult that he had a heart attack trying to play it! Did you know that Ferlendis was paid more as court oboist than Mozart was as court composer? I think oboe players as a group arc among the most colorful people in the world. And this whole thing about different schools of playing... what's the big deal? There are no two violinists who play alike - they all play differently. There's nothing wrong with that, and just look at pianists! Rubenstein and Horowitz lived at the same time, and played completely differently from each other. Yet each was inspired and great. That's wonderful, and it helps create more of an audience, it gets people interested and excited in what the different players are doing.

NP: So the order of the day would be fifty Liszts who play the oboe?

BL: Yes. I want them all! There's room enough for everybody in this world. I listen to the tapes from the last competition, and some of it is so fabulous. All I can say is more! Let 'em come on!

For further information, please contact:

Oboe International Inc.

P.O. Box 1335, Ansonia Station

New York, New York 10023-1335

(Tape entries for 1988 competition must be postmarked by I March 1988)

Copyright 1987, all rights reserved by Nora Post

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