Topic: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

It's pretty quiet here, let's get something started. Let's do a completely unscientific survey. I'll keep track of the responses and post the results in a week or two.

QUESTION:

Do you make a collar on your bassoon reeds or not?

(Yes or no answers only. If that's too limiting for you, maybe a brief explanation as to why you do what you do, but keep it short. Not like my usual responses.)

Added a bit later: Thought I'd clarify my idea of a collar, since the first replies seem to indicate to me that perhaps there are different ideas on just what a collar is. (They all came back YES to having a collar.)

I guess all reeds sort of have a collar to some extent. When the cane is profiled, there is a definite line across the back of the blade. Some people might consider this a collar. I don't.

Also, some people might have some unprofiled cane in front of the first wire, before the actual vibrating blade.

My thought was that a collar is a significant cut into the cane that's made usually with a file across the blank. Not the cut that comes off the profiler. Wire placement is not as significant to me, as far as this discussion goes, but it would definitely affect how a reed responds and what you can do with it regarding tip opening, etc..

If you're still not sure what I'm talking about, take a look at most sax or clarinet reeds. In my opinion, they don't have collars, but instead they have a slope up into the bark. (With the exception of a few new reeds styles usually called "French cut" or something like that. Don't look at them!)

Last edited by DaHah (2007-09-22 11:14:44)

Harry Searing
Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Heckelphone
Faculty: Manhattan School of Music Precollege Division (NY), Montclair State University (NJ) &  CUNY (NY)
President, LRQ Publishing - featuring the bassoon music of Francisco Mignone

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Yes!!!!!!!!

Scott Pool

"The Ornaments look pretty, but they're pulling down the branches of the tree." - Cake

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

YES.

David Bell
Alexandria, VA

David Bell
Alexandria, VA
amateur bassoon and contra bassoon

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Good timing for your question!  I've always used a collar (for 30 years) but I've been trying both ways for about three months (an attempt at a lazy shortcut?), and find the tone to be clearer on reeds with a collar.  Nothing scientific, just my perception.

Happy Bassooning!

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Yes.       I've tried without, but the high range didn't come out as well (oddly) and sound not as clear (as Jon Beebe, my 1st teacher 25 years ago, said).

Mark

Mark Ortwein
Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
OrtweinWoodwinds.com

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Yes, I have a collar on my reeds. I've experimented with no collar and have found them to be less responsive in the low register (for me) but I also know fine players who make do without a collar and have no problems in the low register or anywhere else for that matter. Go figure.......
Charles McCracken

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

yes!  never seen a reed without a collar...

Bryan Cavitt
Bassoonist, Elkhart (IN) Municipal Band; Bassoon Dad

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Tim McGovern at the University of Illinois deliberately destroys the collar on his reeds, blending the bark into the profiled section of the cane.  He says it gives him a slightly darker sound.  I never got that result from mine when I tried it.  I just leave the solid line from the profiler, and my wire is at least 3mm behind that.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

I don't use a collar, most of my teachers have not used collars.  (Harry is my teacher, and his reeds are incredible!)

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

yes i use collar

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Yes I use a collar.

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

OK, let me see if I can help this discussion out a bit.  Here are some images:

Reed by Timothy McGovern:
http://trent.jacobs.home.insightbb.com/McGovern.JPG

This reed has no collar at all.

Reed by Trent Jacobs
http://trent.jacobs.home.insightbb.com/Jacobs.JPG

This reed has a collar put on by the profiler (profiled by Tony at AllBassoonCane)

Reed by unknown bassoonist
http://trent.jacobs.home.insightbb.com/Unknown.JPG

This reed has a collar, I think put in by a file.  There is a drop in the profile directly before the bark.  I got this reed from a bassoonist that I cannot remember the name of.  He was the second bassoon with a symphony orchestra in Monterrey Mexico at the time.

My understanding is that Harry doesn't consider my reed (#2) to have a collar, although I have always understood this to be a collar and I think other bassoonists do as well.

Sorry the reeds aren't all perfectly straight and in focus, but I don't have the proper setup to take real scholarly photos of reeds with the lighting and all.  For the purposes of this discussion I belive these are adequate though.

Last edited by Trent (2007-09-23 20:28:32)

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Thanks, Trent, for posting those photos.

The first one is sort of what I go for, too.

And I guess I might consider #2 a collar, depends on how much cane is removed at the back. Looks like it might have just come off a profiler that way. Could go either way on this one.

And #3 is a definite collar.

If I can figure out how to post photos here, I'll put up a couple of mine. One picture is worth...

Let's see if this works...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hsearing/Collar_Side.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hsearing/Collar_Top.jpg

Last edited by DaHah (2007-09-23 13:46:19)

Harry Searing
Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Heckelphone
Faculty: Manhattan School of Music Precollege Division (NY), Montclair State University (NJ) &  CUNY (NY)
President, LRQ Publishing - featuring the bassoon music of Francisco Mignone

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

DaHah wrote:

Thanks, Trent, for posting those photos.

The first one is sort of what I go for, too.

And I guess I might consider #2 a collar, depends on how much cane is removed at the back. Looks like it might have just come off a profiler that way. Could go either way on this one.

And #3 is a definite collar.

If I can figure out how to post photos here, I'll put up a couple of mine. One picture is worth...

Let's see if this works...

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hsearing/Picture_022.jpg

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hsearing/Picture_023.jpg

to make the photos show up just do this:

[img]url of photo (http://mywebpages.comcast.net/hsearing/Picture_022.jpg)[/img]

The [] brackets are located to the right of the letter P on your keyboard.

Last edited by Trent (2007-09-23 20:28:48)

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Yes, I cut collar into my reeds using a knife. I do not use a file since filing breaks down the fibers on the top layer of the cane and it will dampen the reed. Here is a photo of my reed.

http://ishikawa.colorado.edu/photos/yireed.jpg

Yoshi Ishikawa
Professor of Bassoon, University of Colorado at Boulder, College of Music
Editor, IDRS OnLine Publications

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

WOW!! I'll add my two bits as well. Yes I do make a collar as did all my teachers. I remember seeing some reeds by David Carroll having a curved collar even. I tell my students that the collar has a subtle effect on the way the reed will respond both in the high and the low register. I need about a 2 mm collar no more no less. If I played second bassoon alot I migh consider a slightly smaller collar as it seems to free up the low register a bit sometimes. To each his own, all I care about is if the reed feels and sounds good....this can be acheived in many different ways. I learned that from Louis Skinner.

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Thanks to Trent, Yoshi and Doug Quint (via email) who helped me fix my photos and the code so that they display properly and don't take a day and a half to show!

I missed that forward slash in the second tag. It's been a long time since I had to hard code html.

Trent, if you want, you can take my photos out of your posting since I now have them sized properly in mine. Thanks for taking the time to get them up there! You didn't have to do that, but it was appreciated.

Harry Searing
Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Heckelphone
Faculty: Manhattan School of Music Precollege Division (NY), Montclair State University (NJ) &  CUNY (NY)
President, LRQ Publishing - featuring the bassoon music of Francisco Mignone

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Collar -yes

Rich Gordley

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

No biggie.  I help out people on forums like this one (although usually technology related) all the time.  It's not even html... *shrug*  Pictures removed.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

I have an extremely pronounced collar on my reeds since I make a Garfield like reed (51mm overall 26mm blade, 25mm tube). The back area usually measures around .020-.025 inches (0.5-0.6mm) so theres almost no way i could get away without not having a collar. Yoshi I believe you called my reed a "reverse taper" reed when you were looking at my reed with Mike Rabinowitz in Ithaca. I have alot of strange looks when people see my reeds but I havent had a single complaint on how well they function.

                                     Best Regards,
                                         Chad

Last edited by Bssntech (2007-09-23 21:14:33)

Taylor Bassoon Services
723 Steamboat Ct
Ottawa, IL 61350
PH-815-343-2492

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Hi Chad:

Those are my reed measurements too.  It is modeled after Garfield's and my back is very thin.  Some of Garfield's reeds get even thinner than the .020 inches and yes the collar is very pronounced.  Some are cut flush with the 1st wire while others leave a millimeter or 2 of cane.  The shape is very small.  I know this may be getting off the topic of collars but I am wondering what shape you use.  I have the Fox custom Garfield shape.  Thanks, Kent

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Hi Kent:




       I started using the Fox G2 (Garfield) shape when I was playing on an older Fox Model 2 but, when I switched to playing on my 7000 and 8000 series Heckels I found it wasnt quite my cup of tea anymore. I decided that I had to try to create my own shape, I just couldnt find a shaper that was slighly larger that would give a pleasing shape for those dimensions. What I wound up doing was taking a Rigotti #3 flat shaper and gradually filing at it, shaping cane, testing, repeat process, unitl I was happy with the results. The only problem was after about 3 months of shaping on my newly made shaper was that the blade was starting to really wear the exposed steel since I had removed the plating off. I called Chip Owen out at Fox and explained my situation. He immediately suggested that I send him a few pieces of my shaped cane, and they would make my custom shape and add it to their line of custom shapers.  I recieved the Fox TR (Taylor) shaper about 3-4 months after the initial consultation and approval of the design. The end result I could not be more pleased with. I have had that shaper for 3 years now and have made i I dont know how many reeds with it both for myself and a few others and it works just fantastic. I found recently that one of my repair customers just switched to making garfield style reeds with my shape and he is very happy with the results he's getting.

      I will try to post a pic of one of my reeds some time in the next day or so.


                                            Best Regards,
                                             Chad Taylor

Taylor Bassoon Services
723 Steamboat Ct
Ottawa, IL 61350
PH-815-343-2492

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Very interesting Chad.  Thanks, I would like to see the picture of the shape.  I also play a 7000 series Heckel made in 1931.  Since this is getting off topic I wonder if we should start another thread once you post your picture perhaps with a link from here.  Take care, Kent

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Kent,
Here's a link to dimensional information about Chad's shape: 
Taylor shape.
(The forum system apparently won't allow a long web address without truncating it.  You'll need to copy all of the address and enter it as a single line with no spaces.)
This kind of information is available at the Fox web site for each Fox bassoon and contrabassoon shaper.  Just go into the shopping cart system, navigate to the shaper you're interested in, and click where it says to click.

------

Liink is now active!

Last edited by IDRS (2007-09-27 11:31:57)

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Re: Collar or no collar? What do YOU do?

Thanks Chip.  That is great information to have.

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University