Topic: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

I think I'm screwed. I need to learn how to flutter tongue in a week. This is further complicated by the fact I've never been able to roll my R's. I had to flutter tongue as a student a few times, but I always faked it by making that growling sound in the back of my throat. It sounds terrible in my opinion, and in those situations I only had to flutter tongue for a short time at a loud dynamic. I picked up the music for Erwartung this morning and noticed the last staff is a two-octave chromatic scale, flutter tongued, and marked PPP. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help.

"It's not my job to give you the pulse! It's your job to figure it out!"
-An Allegedly Professional Conductor

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Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Try this article.  http://www.nuoboe.com/html/fluttertongue.html

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

There was also some discussion a while back.  http://www.doublereed.org/IDRSBBS/viewtopic.php?id=614

Last edited by Kent Moore (2009-01-30 19:32:11)

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Many, many players cannot flutter tongue well. As a substitute, try passing your tongue quickly up and down over the reed tip - or side to side if up and down doesn't appear to work. In my opinion, flutter tongueing cannot be performed softly, so the pianisissimo instruction is a miscalculation on the part of an otherwise well-informed and highly-thought-of orchestrator. Best wishes, crw

Christopher Weait,
Principal bassoon, Toronto Symphony (1968 - 1985)
IDRS Honorary Member; Emeritus professor Ohio State University
www.weaitmusic.com

Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

You know those plastic Fox bassoon reeds that most people ignore or throw out? One might help you with the early stages of learning flutter tonguing. Something about their response can be helpful in this regard. It's worth a try.

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Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Can you say "Chutzpah"?  The sound at the beginning of that can be an effective flutter tongue.  Can't remember her name, but an oboist at IDRS gave a talk using that as how she flutter tongues.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Considering the ppp instruction, I wonder if the effect required might be obtained by playing on the very extreme tip of the reed where the response is so near to producing a "bass tuba" style loose buzz while performing the scale. It would choke the volume down and quite possibly give a "flutter" effect. Probably need some experimenting with, (and one week might be pushing it). However it might be marginally better than giving it away altogether.

I have not tried these two techniques in combination but occasionally for avant garde effects in free improv playing, have produced weird flutter effects by playing way out on the tip. The reed is so far out that the lips actually meet behind the tip to produce the flutter type buzz.

Neville

Neville Forsythe
Christchurch New Zealand
Bassoonist / Teacher / Conductor

Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Sorry Chris for disagreeing, but you CAN flutter tongue quietly with a rolled glotal flutter tongue and I can prove it....if you can imagine gargling slightly forward of the back of your throat you can do this loud and soft without influencing pitch...this works up to the highest notes....say for Schoenberg's Erwartung.

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Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Hi Vince, I'm going to try your gargling / flutter tonguing technique. Thanks for the encouragement! Chris

Christopher Weait,
Principal bassoon, Toronto Symphony (1968 - 1985)
IDRS Honorary Member; Emeritus professor Ohio State University
www.weaitmusic.com

Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Do let me know how it goes Chris, I'd love to know smile

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Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Thanks for all the suggestions. I did read the other thread referenced by Ken, but thought it might be a good idea to re-post since it was over a year old and directed toward oboists. No luck learning to roll R's in a week. I also tried saying the words "chutzpah" and "jalapeno" as suggested on the oboe Web site. I must pronounce those words differently because I didn't get any results with that. The gargling method is working surprisingly well for me. I need to work on getting better consistency and stamina with the technique, but am very pleased with the results so far. It works both loud and soft, and is even throughout the scale. Thanks a lot Vincent for that suggestion.

"It's not my job to give you the pulse! It's your job to figure it out!"
-An Allegedly Professional Conductor

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Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

I am so glad that that worked for you !! It will take a bit of time to get more consistency of course but I find it works the best for me and I do ALOT of new music.

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Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

Hello dear collegians! Does anyone have an idea how this musician (Mariusz P?dzia?ek) performs flutter tonguing? Looks like very peculiar approach, isn't? The link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrU6yuER0Ug
Sounds rather like fast double tonguing, hmm...

Last edited by borriss (2009-02-13 21:11:39)

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Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

He's probably doing it in the front, like a rolling R.  It's just for him it's rather slow and articulate sounding.  That's what I gather from the video anyway.  I could be very wrong of course.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Flutter Tonguing on Bassoon

I've always fluttered by using something like the french R. It works suprisingly well for me!

Last edited by JBJ Bassoon (2009-03-05 02:37:43)

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