Topic: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

Hello friends,

I am officially annoyed to have 20 reeds which all have a spinning wrapping, meaning I have to be extra careful dealing with the reeds. Is there any way to prevent this, and if it happens is there any way to fix it? For reference I use a three wire set up with the third wire about 3 mm from the butt, I use one layer of Duco on the wrapping but not on the tube before hand.

I have heard some people make small notches with a file in the cane before they wrap. Does anyone have any experience with this? Or maybe this is my sign to abandon wrapping all together.

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

try Super Glue instead of Duco.  Get the liquid form, not gel.  Dries almost instantly, produces a very hard and stable wrapped tube.  Works very nicely with cotton thread...about the only drawback I've found is that the superglue sets up so hard it is difficult to adjust the 2nd wire.  That said, I regularly continue to use Hot Glue.

Frank Watson
Spartanburg Philharmonic Orchestra
Converse College Petrie School of Music

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

With super glue would still only put it on the wrapping, or would you put any on the tube?

Last edited by Joshua Luty (2014-11-22 12:36:43)

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

Make sure your tubes are completely dry, tighten your wires and use a coat of Duco under your wrapping as well as on top and you won't have a problem.

Bob Williams

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

When I wrap, I don't put Duco cement on the bare tube, however I do leave a bit of tube exposed below the second wire. I prefer this look and I think it helps prevent the wrapping move. I agree with Bob Williams and make sure you are wrapping your reeds with dry cane.

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

When I've used superglue, I didn't put any on the tube prior to wrapping.  Just wrapped with cotton thread and soak the cotton thread with the superglue.  Gotta be careful not to glue the reed to the mandrel, or fingers to the reed LOL.

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

I do file notches in the tube and never have any problems.  I sometimes use a glue gun, but when I wrap with thread I do put Duco on the tube before wrapping too.

Mark

Mark Ortwein
Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
OrtweinWoodwinds.com

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

You guys should really consider switching to heat-shrink tubing. Water-tight and it never, EVER comes loose (if you use the kind with hot-melt glue inside). Structurally the equal of, if not superior to, thread wrapping. And needless to say, much faster to install, plus you don't have to wait for the Duco to dry before soaking and trying out the reed.

Christopher Brodersen
Maker of Historical Keyboard Instruments
Reviewer/contributor - Fanfare Magazine
Amateur bassoonist, baroque oboist, baroque bassoonist

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

I do the glue first too, I use four wires. I actually leave the wires poking through the wrap and bend them over the wrap so I can tighten them for other players bocals. I pull cotton crochet thread through beeswax first and put glue over the wrap. The beeswax keeps the string nicely in place and gives the reed a shiny look when the glue dries. Here in Europe I use Uhu Hart on the thread but use a Spanish universal glue made by Uhu called Imedio on the tube, it's runnier and seals any pores in the tube quite nicely. Shrink tubes are a good idea, but I actually like the look and feel of a wrapped reed, not to mention I find the wrapping process therapeutic. -Steve

Principal bassoonist, Orquesta Sinfonica de Galicia, A Coruña, Spain. Bassoonist, bassoon dad, bassoon husband, bassoon uncle, bassoon brother and bassoon son.

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

I forgot to mention, use of superglue on the reed tube would also polymerize the wood of the tube and may very well travel up the fibers of the reed. This may be desirable or not, I have never used it on reeds so couldn't say. I would recommend trying normal glue and super to see if there is a difference. I know Bernard Garfield and John Shamlian used only beeswax on their reeds, no glue. I think that would make a softer tube. My fear of superglue is that it is easy to get your fingers stuck to things and difficult to remove not to mention it bothers the eyes and sinuses.

Last edited by marydoob (2014-11-24 00:36:58)

Principal bassoonist, Orquesta Sinfonica de Galicia, A Coruña, Spain. Bassoonist, bassoon dad, bassoon husband, bassoon uncle, bassoon brother and bassoon son.

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

Wrapping may be spinning because you wrap the tube before the cane has truly dried after forming. In addition to making "adjustment notches" (Lou Skinner's term) and / or using glue under the wrapping, you could consider soaking the cane for less time before forming. For example, placing cane in just boiled water for 3 minutes prior to forming.

Christopher Weait,
Principal bassoon, Toronto Symphony (1968 - 1985)
IDRS Honorary Member; Emeritus professor Ohio State University
www.weaitmusic.com

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

Again, with heat-shrink tubing all these considerations fall by the wayside. Because both the tubing and the hot-melt glue inside are flexible, it matters little whether the cane is completely dry or not. Conversely, as the reed is soaked and allowed to dry, the heat-shrink tubing will flex and follow the cane as it expands and contracts, something that Duco cannot do. Bonds made with nitrocellulose adhesives like Duco have a very poor resistance to water, and yet most bassoonists dunk their reeds in water many times over during the life of the reed, expecting the wrapping to hold. From an engineering standpoint, not very smart.

Christopher Brodersen
Maker of Historical Keyboard Instruments
Reviewer/contributor - Fanfare Magazine
Amateur bassoonist, baroque oboist, baroque bassoonist

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

In all of this nobody has asked if the OP is using nylon thread or cotton.

Superglue can have an exothermic reaction with cotton thread, so you have to be careful if you go that route.

Personally, I have scored/roughed up cane at the tube area, I use cotton crochet thread, and put one layer of Duco on the outside of the cotton wrapping. Done on totally dry (at least 2 weeks not in any water) I never have issues with the thread coming off.

However, I would have problems with nylon thread, or if I used something other than Duco, like beeswax.

Many different ways to skin a cat.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

Oops! Good point trent, the few times I have had students really lose the ball on a reed have been with nylon thread. The beeswax thing on cotton hasn't failed for me for over 30 years and my dad always did it too. I am trying the superglue on some tubes to see what it does to the reeds. I only applied the super to the tubes up to the second wire. I should have measured the cane for density first. I let the glue dry first, then wrapped it the next day. I was curious, nothing to do with the ball failing, more to see what it would do, probably doesn't do anything.

Principal bassoonist, Orquesta Sinfonica de Galicia, A Coruña, Spain. Bassoonist, bassoon dad, bassoon husband, bassoon uncle, bassoon brother and bassoon son.

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

This may seem odd, but I use nail-polish to secure the threading.
I use a clear nail-polish on the cane first and a variety of colored
polish on top of the threads.
Since I use white threads this makes the reeds more colorful and
unique. The different colors also serve as a kind of time stamps

Share

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

Willy wrote:

This may seem odd, but I use nail-polish to secure the threading.
I use a clear nail-polish on the cane first and a variety of colored
polish on top of the threads.
Since I use white threads this makes the reeds more colorful and
unique. The different colors also serve as a kind of time stamps

I painted white cotton thread with nail polish when I was doing lots of reed experiments in grad school. It also led to interesting nicknames to some of my reeds.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Turban/wrapping/thread spins and/or comes off vey easily

I have been using hot glue for the past three years.  No fumes, no more sore fingers and arms from winding the string around the tube of the reed and it sticks like glue!  You can be very artful with colors and if you don't like your results you can heat the glue with an alcohol lamp and reform it.  I use a mandrel mounted to a gear motor for ease of application.  I love it!!

Bob Williams

Share