Topic: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

I wonder if anyone is doing a bevel similar to the Herzberg bevel but without waiting for the 2 weeks minimum to dry the reed.  You would have to do each side separately instead of both sides together since you don't have that rounded tube.  Do most of you who use his bevel, use the short 3/8?  I see in another thread that Gerald Corey mentions to start the bevel only 7mm back.  http://www.doublereed.org/IDRSBBS/viewtopic.php?id=92   This is less than 3/8.  Thanks.

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Hi Kent:



       I dont wait 2 weeks. I usually wait 24-48 hours after the cane is relatively dry and bevel. I use the 3/8 bevel.


                                                               Best Regards,
                                                                  Chad

Taylor Bassoon Services
723 Steamboat Ct
Ottawa, IL 61350
PH-815-343-2492

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

I usually wait 48 - 72 hours. Here is a video of Herzberg bevel as explained and demonstrated by Herzberg.

Member login to www.idrs.org required.

http://www.idrs.org/multimedia/video/browserecord.php?-action=browse&-recid=827

Yoshi Ishikawa
Professor of Bassoon, University of Colorado at Boulder, College of Music
Editor, IDRS OnLine Publications

Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Thanks Chad and Yoshi.  It is nice to hear 2 weeks isn't essential though I imagine Herzberg would say I should have enough reeds on the assembly line that 2 weeks shouldn't be a problem.  That video is great and I bet is the reason so many are using this bevel even if they didn't study with Herzberg.

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Does anyone know when Mr. Herzberg developed this style of bevel?  Is it relatively new or has it been around a long time.

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Great video, Yoshi!

For some reason, students seem to have trouble with this concept of beveling and thus encounter problems with slippage and/or tip opening that won't stay open. I'm gonna make them all watch this.

As great as that Cooper article about "magic splinters" (or was it triangles) is, this is much more to the point.

I've always been convinced about the importance of beveling thanks to my father. He was a machinist and knew absolutely nothing about reed making. But he was curious because it involved tools. So he watched me as I started to make my very first reeds. He saw what needed to be done and before I performed any beveling (as instructed by my teacher, not that I understood anything about its importance at that point), my father said to me, "You're going to bevel, aren't you?"

The rest is history...

Harry Searing
Bassoon, Contrabassoon, Heckelphone
Faculty: Manhattan School of Music Precollege Division (NY), Montclair State University (NJ) &  CUNY (NY)
President, LRQ Publishing - featuring the bassoon music of Francisco Mignone

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Thank you for that wonderful video, Yoshi!  So informative!  And so provocative, since at the very end, Herzberg says, "and now........"  and there the video ends!  Did anyone make a part II?  wink

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

...let's eat lunch, if I recall.

To view other Herzberg interview video clips, go to http://www.idrs.org/multimedia/video/findrecords.php?-db=video&-lay=video&
and enter "herzberg" in the "artist" field.

Yoshi Ishikawa
Professor of Bassoon, University of Colorado at Boulder, College of Music
Editor, IDRS OnLine Publications

Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Thanks for that information, Bob.  This is pretty much what I do for beveling and I wondered if it would have the same or similar effect as the Herzberg bevel.  I don't quite start at the 1st wire though.  But lately I have been trying to do it a little closer.

Dr. Kent Moore
Principal Lecturer In Bassoon and Theory
Northern Arizona University

Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Bob, I use this type of bevel quite often, but usually do it 9mm from the butt (with the 3rd wire at about 7-8mm from the butt) and get great results.
I recently made some reeds the Hertzberg way and  am getting the same results as what I've been doing for years without having to take the reed apart. 
If I want a smaller throat I will bevel all the way up close to the collar or just in front of the 2nd wire.

Mark

Mark Ortwein
Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
OrtweinWoodwinds.com

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

I used to do the method of cutting the sliver like Bob mentions, but I could never get it accurate.  That's why I switched to Herzberg's method.  Doing it after the cane has been formed gives greater consistency for me in making sure the bevel matches straight on every reed.  I was just not accurate when using a razor blade, both in angle and in how much I was removing.

I also feel like when a reed sits in blank stage (before any scraping but after forming a round tube, whether there are wires on it or not) for a long time the final product is better.  I made far too many blanks early in my master's degree and three years later I still had blanks from some of those sessions.  The ones that had sat for a long time were typically very consistent compared to one that I would just make and then make a reed from.  If that made any sense.  So in a way, the two weeks + of drying for me are less so much about making sure the cane is dry and more about just letting the cane stabilize.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

I want to second what Bob wrote about Jim Poe and Glickman-Popkin Bassoon Camp.

According to the web site, there is one opening left for a male camper, due to a cancellation.

http://www.bassooncamp.com

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Trent- Try using an Exacto blade instead of a razor blade.  You'll have much more control.   
Bob - I'd love to see Jim's beveling tool.  Next time I see you I'll ask about it!

Mark

Mark Ortwein
Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra
OrtweinWoodwinds.com

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Mark, by razor I did really mean exacto blade.  (probably have used both...)  At any rate I'm very happy with the results I'm getting now and I wasn't happy with the results I was getting then, so I'll stick with what I've got for now!

There really isn't any disassembly involved in Herzberg's method, since no wires go on until after the bevel.  I get a better matching bevel with this technique so it's worth having to take it off the mandrel for a while.  I also actually "bevel" (I hesitate to call it that) all the way into the blades a little bit.  Just a few passes with sand paper to get the sharp edge off the inside of the edges of the blades.  This has seemed to help prevent my blades from slipping.  I don't think you can really do this as well before forming the tube round.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

I use the Herzberg bevel for all of my reeds, bassoon, and contra bassoon. I usually wait one 8 hour period before doing the bevel. By that time, the cocoon has completly dried out and it is easy to do the bevel at 7 mm onto the edge of a sanding block, as Norman Herzberg taught it. Gerald Corey

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

Hello Kent, Actually to do the Norman Herzberg properly you must 1st form the tube with the cane soaked in your usual manner. Then if you have allowed 12 hours for the cocoon reed to dry  you can remove wire I (if applied) and you can then do both halves of the FORMED tube section on a sanding block for 7 mm forward and back. This creates a void shaped like an equilateral triangle out of the very tips of the ends of the tube, to make the "Simple mechanical advantage" to reeds using the Herzberg bevel. Of course, when you re-soak the reed and add wires III,  II, and a new I , you must then use your forming pliers to squeeze extra strongly at the butt end of the reed for that void to come against the actual mandrel shank, with no leak possible. The strength of this plier action is transferred through the vascular bundles of the cane from reed butt end, to tip of reed, so that once the tip has been clipped OPEN you will have for that reed the 4 basic improved playing charateristics of every reed having the Herzberg bevel. On no account should a bassoonist try to sane the un-formed tube section of a piece of cane and expect to get the same fine resultants that a player using the bevel on a totally formed reed tube will always accomplish. Sincerely, Gerald Corey, Ottawa

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Re: Herzberg Bevel Without Drying?

I realize this reply is about 8 years after this prior discussion but I figured it wasn't worth making an additional post about it. I was able to access the JW player file for the video of the Herzberg bevel a couple months ago, recently, however, I've noticed that many browsers have began (Or already have) stopped their support for flash player videos. Is there another way to access the video? Thanks again!

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