Topic: Herzberg general fingerings

I am willing to write out the fingerings Mr. Herzberg taught me with the iscii code if there is interest, as I doubt everybody knows them.

please let me know if there is enough interest for me to do this.
best regards,
scott vigder

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

Yes, certainly!  I'd love to have them.  I'm always looking for fingerings to solve different problems.

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

Please do!!  Will be the closest I'll ever see to Kovar!

Bryan Cavitt
Bassoonist, Elkhart (IN) Municipal Band; Bassoon Dad

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

I would appreciate a little input on where to start with the fingerings---please let me know what is best to start with.
I was thinking of writing the fingerings out first from eb above middle c up to the high eb as that range is always the one that many people have not secure fingerings learned.

scott vigder

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

That's probably a good idea, for the reason you have stated.  I'd appreciate having a start on that section first, anyway....

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

thank you nancy, that will be the starting point.

scott vigder

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

how many fingerings would it make sense to put on each post?please give me some input.

scott vigder

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

0bassoon wrote:

how many fingerings would it make sense to put on each post?please give me some input.

scott vigder

Scott, 

I didn't know that Mr. Herzberg had that many non-standard fingerings.  I am looking through my lesson notes and only see a few.  In fact, I know that he always preached to me that I should "decide on a fingering for any given note and then use that fingering, and that fingering only, for that pitch in all of your scales and etudes."  "Learn one fingering and make it work."  is a note I have in my Orefici book.   "Only change fingerings when it is absolutely necessary to do so. " is another.

I know others who view this Forum studied with him a LOT more than me, but in my experiences in working and playing with other students of Mr. Herzberg I have seen my experiences evidenced with them too.  Maybe I'm completely incorrect here.  Maybe he changed his approach over the years.  I'm not the expert here, I'm just commenting as it seems like you have received a very different approach than I did.

I am very curious about the alternate fingerings he taught you - I'm really interested, actually.  Why don't you type them up into a Word document or something and simply link to it from here.  That might be the easiest way to see them all.

Thanks!

Matthew Harvell
Richmond Symphony Orchestra

Last edited by harvellm (2008-08-08 12:57:14)

Re: Herzberg general fingerings

Ditto from a non-Herzberg student....I would also be very interested to see the fingerings too. By the way Scott,I tried viewing the IDRS site for bassoon fingerings and I got NOTHING... I think there is a problem there.

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

Scott,

Yes, I think your idea would be great. Also, if you like, I could look into getting them posted on the IDRS website with the Bassoon Family Fingering Companion.

In terms of the ascii code, please take a look at the Companion. You will see their instructions for how I encoded the fingerings a decade ago.

http://www.idrs.org/resources/BSNFING/ascii.htm

Thanks for your offer to do this. This will be a wonderful resource,

Terry

Terry Ewell
Professor Bassoon, Towson University
Former President, IDRS
Former Principal Bassoon Hong Kong Philharmonic, Wheeling Symphony

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Re: Herzberg general fingerings

Terry B. Ewell wrote:

Scott,

Yes, I think your idea would be great. Also, if you like, I could look into getting them posted on the IDRS website with the Bassoon Family Fingering Companion.

In terms of the ascii code, please take a look at the Companion. You will see their instructions for how I encoded the fingerings a decade ago.

http://www.idrs.org/resources/BSNFING/ascii.htm

Thanks for your offer to do this. This will be a wonderful resource,

Terry

I have tons of space to host whatever format ends up being generated and will gladly donate this to the cause.

Matthew Harvell
Richmond Symphony Orchestra

Re: Herzberg general fingerings

Once these are up I can make them into a more typical graphical visual using Sibelius.  The end result when I do it looks very much like what you would have in a method book or when you hand write it.  I'll keep my eye on this post to keep on the progress.

The more I learn about Herzberg's theories the more I like them, so this topic is of keen interest to me.

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Herzberg general fingerings

Trent wrote:

Once these are up I can make them into a more typical graphical visual using Sibelius.  The end result when I do it looks very much like what you would have in a method book or when you hand write it.  I'll keep my eye on this post to keep on the progress.

The more I learn about Herzberg's theories the more I like them, so this topic is of keen interest to me.

This is easily done and it sounds great.  I'm just really anxious to resolve the disparity of teaching that I am detecting here.  I've finished reviewing all of my notes and I see two "alternate" fingerings, one for the C# above the staff and one for the F# a P4 above.  I remember him simply saying "choose one and just use it, always."  As I said in my original post, I don't question any person's experience as there are those among us who worked for years and years with him who may have a completely different perspective, but I am anxious to see what else Mr. Herzberg taught other people, especially in this regard,  as I've played with a lot of other Herzberg students and all of us did basically the same thing in this area from my memory, anyway.  I can contact Mrs. Herzberg, perhaps she has his notes, too.

This could be a real revelation and any representation of it could be fantastic. 

Looking forward,

Matthew Harvell
Richmond Symphony Orchestra

BTW, I don't know what "theories" you're hearing, Trent, but I think the word "theorems" or "hypothesis" would be better if I'm guessing correctly about that which you are referring to.  There is way more than one way to get to the end, of course, but I think the word "theories" is a bit too loose when you're talking about someone like Herzberg, Sharrow, Van Hoesen, Garfield, Millard, Morelli, Maxym, Schoenbach, etc.  Too many practical results to call it a theory.  Just my opinion!

Last edited by harvellm (2008-08-26 21:26:53)

Re: Herzberg general fingerings

I meant theory in the common use of the word, not the strict scientific sense like the Theory (capital T) of Gravity.  In truth the word "theory" was not too loose but too strict for my casual use of it.

Substitute the word "idea" if you want.  Doesn't really matter.

Got your email, no big deal.

Last edited by Trent (2008-08-27 11:03:42)

M.M.A., D.M.A. University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign: B.Mus. Lawrence University
Bassoon professor at University of Wisconsin Eau-Claire
Maker of the Little-Jake electric bassoon pickup and Weasel bassoon reeds

Re: Herzberg general fingerings

My experience with Norman Herzberg (I went to the Music Academy of the West in the summer of 1977) dovetails with what Matt Harvell is describing. Pick one and stick with it. Which is pretty much what I (try to) do, myself. I also remember the C# & F# fingerings that Matt describes. Pick one and stick with it.

Paul Barrett
   -Principal Bassoonist, Honolulu Symphony
    -Lecturer in Bassoon, University of Hawaii